Saturday, June 23, 2007
blog query week three
Gradgrind at Bath? Mary Musgrove in Coketown? Take one character from Persuasion and place him or her in Hard Times. Or one from Hard Times and place in Persuasion. How would that person react to the other situation? How would the other characters react to yours? Discuss how your person fits into the other society portrayed generally, but give specifics of setting and at least one quote from your character and suggest how it might affect the other novel. Is it a different time? A different place? A different class?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
10 comments:
Looking at the character of Anne from the book Persuation, you can notice that she is not one to let people walk all over her, and demand that she do certain tasks. Anne also has developed her own mind, as well as independence. If you were to take Anne, and put her into the position of Louisa in Hard Times, I believe that the book would be very different (Note: Anne would be entered into Hard Times just as she is, not as a child). First, Anne would not accept being told what to learn and what not to learn, therefore giving Mr. and Mrs. Gradgrind, as well as Mr. Bounderby a very difficult time. Anne would not be as obedient as Louisa. The characters I would percieve to be angered and frustrated with Anne's confidence.
Anne would fit into the Society of Hard Times. She is of the better class that Mr. Gradgrind sees himself in. Anne is also educated, which is what Mr. Gradgrind prides himself on. However, in general, Anne would have a hard time fitting into the part of Mr. Gradgrind's personal society which believes in strictly fact, nothing else.
A quote from Anne, taken from chapter 18 when she was talking to the Admiral about the engagement between Capt. Benwick and Lousia Musgrove: "I hope Admiral, I hope there is nothing in the sytle of Captain Wentworth's letter to make you and Mrs. Croft particularly uneasy. It did certainly seem, last autumn, as if there were an attachment between him and Louisa Musgrove; but I hope it may be understood to have worn out on each side equally, and without violence. i hope his letter does not breathe the spirit of an ill-used man." Looking at this quote, there are many things that in paricular wold really upset Mr. Gradgrind. First, Anne's use of the word "hope" would not be tolerated. According to Mr. Gradgrind, like hope, like the word wonder, is not fact. Anne would not be allowed to express her feelings like she did to the Admiral. Also, the use of perception is not fact, especially when she says, "did certainly seem". Anne's simple use of language itself would alter the entire book, because Anne would not be the complacent daughter Lousia is; instead, she would have everyone very upset most of the time, since she would not be properly using her teachings.
Between Persuation and Hard Times, they do indeed take place in different times and places. Hard Times disscusses factories and trains and the use of new inventions, which would be because the book is situated while the Industrial Revolution is occuring; Persuation, they are still using carriages to get from one place to another, and there is no significant use of technology. When it comes to location, Persuation takes place primarily in Kellynich Hall, Lyme and Bath, which are all very nice places to visit. Hard Times takes place in Coketown, England, which is an industrial city.
Looking at class, You could argue that the class of both novels is the same, yet different. I believe that the Gradgrinds and Elliots are both in the Upper classes of their locations. However, the Elliots are higher up in the upper class because of Sir Walter Elliots title. The Gradgrinds are int eh upper class because they are educated, and not working amongst the lower class, in the circus or factory.
Charles Dickens’ Coketown typifies an industrial city during the nineteenth-century. Many of the main protagonists (the Gradgrinds and Bounderby), much like the setting, are generally detached, calculating and unfeeling. Their lives in Coketown become ruled and regulated by “facts” which produces human drones, no better than the machines in the factories of Coketown.
Between the publishing of Persuasion and Hard Times industrialized England became a dark dismal place. “Coketown lay shrouded in a haze of its own, which appeared impervious to the sun’s rays. You only knew the town was there because you knew there could have been no such sulky blotch upon the prospect without a town,” (Dickens, 106). Images of Coketown and other industrial cities shroud the beauty of England found in Persuasion: “The scenes in this neighbourhood, Charmouth, with its high grounds and extensive sweeps of country, and still more its sweet retired bay, backed by dark cliffs, where fragments of low rock among the sands make it the happiest spot for watching the flow of the tide, for sitting in unwearied contemplation …,” (Austen, 80).
The Industrial Revolution turned an agrarian society into a society centered on industry and manufacturing; manufacturing via machines instead of man power. By the publication of Hard Times we have left (but not forgotten) the romantics with their prose and poetry and have entered a world of rationality, statistics and facts.
I would place Thomas Gradgrind in Persuasion. While I would love to place Mary Musgrove in Coketown, she would not last very long in Coketown where social president seems to take a backseat to production and manufacturing. And, while she found amusement in Lyme as Louisa Musgrove lay unconscious, Coketown could not support the amount of livelihood Mary needs to deem herself happy. Anyway, I would insert Gradgrind into the story at Lyme during one of Anne and Captain Benwick’s discussions of poetry and prose. Mr. Gradgrind being famous for these introductory words: “Now, what I want is Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the mind of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them,” (Dickens, 1) would have a coronary as Anne and Captain Benwick “talked of poetry, the richness of the present age … Marmion or The Lady of the Lake.” He would have also found Captain Benwick a useless man; a man with knowledge only of “the tenderest songs” and “impassioned descriptions of hopeless agony” (Austen, 84-85). On the other side, Anne thought she has a hard time persuading Captain Benwick to change his attitude; her efforts would have been even more determined or fruitless when dealing with the calculating, rigid Thomas Gradgrind.
I would put Bounderby from Hard Times into Persuasion. He is a new money man, and somewhat of a contradiction. Bounderby prides himself on his low birthing and his ascendency into the upper class, but still looks down on the lower class. He tells Stephen Blackpool, "You don’t expect to be set up in a coach and six, and to be fed on turtle soup and venison, with a gold spoon, as a good many of ’em do!" He categorizes the lower class as lazy because they haven't moved through class like he has. I imagine Sir Walter would share some of these convictions because he is equally vain as Bounderby. He looks down on the poor in a different way than Sir Walter does. He disregards them merely for their low birth. Bounderby recognizes the potential for advancement and looks down on those that have not advanced.
I think Bounderby would have an awkward dynamic with the people from Peruasion. Though Bounderby has a great deal of money, he is probably not nearly as wealthy as the Elliots of the Musgroves. He does not have a Kellynch Hall. I imagine Bounderby and Sir Walter would have some interesting conversations, that is if Sir Walter gave him the time of day. Bounderby is, after all, a fairly unattractive man with no noble birth. Bounderby may fit well at Bath, which is less expensive than living out in the country.
I would put Bounderby in the lower-upper class, and Sir Walter in the lower-nobility, which means they probably would not get along too well. The nobility are particular with their words, being very careful not to say anything inappropriate. Bounderby says whatever he wants and speaks mostly about himself. Both men share an obsession with class, though. Bounderby constantly reminds his housekeeper that she was once upper class and now serves him. Sir Walter shuns men who are not "real gentlemen." They are so similar in many ways, but they are from very different backgrounds. Sir Walter's view is more old-fashioned and would not work as well in the more modern world of Dickens. Likewise, Dickens' does not place enough emphasis on birth to relate well to the Persuasion gang. If Bounderby was in Persuasion, though, he would probably only be mentioned as a foot note. There is very little mention of people of lower class than the subjects of the book. He would be just one of the unattractive people Sir Walter passed on the streets of Bath.
I would choose to place Mrs. Sparsit into Persuasion. I feel as thought she would react and mingle very well with the characters in Persuasion. She is of a family that can be dated way back in history, and is very proud of this fact. This is very similiar to the characters in Persuasion, and pride in family. The characters in Persuasion would have reacted very well to Mrs.Sparsit, because she was of old stock, and it was believed she was of good fortune, although not entirely true. She would have been relatively high in their society, and would have been viewd very favorably. I chose the quote, "I certainly, Sir was famaliar with the Italian opera at a very early age." This quote might not have changed the general outcome of the novel, but it is part of a string of quotes telling how she grew up with priveledge and what not, and would have changed the individuals views of her. She would have fit in I believe more so in Bath than in the country with estates and what not. She likes to talk to people, and likes to feel important, so Bath would have been a good place for her. She also was having financial difficulty, so she would have been in a very similar situation to those in Persuasion. the time is very different however. She lives in a very industrial world, surrounded by people who have gained their wealth not by title, although they have titles, but by being owners of industry. Coketown is about means of income, not about means of title.
The differences that four decades and an industrial revolution can make are infinite. The social construct changes, the daily lifestyle, even the topics of conversation are completely revolutionized. Look for instance in the present world that we live in and compare forty years ago and the “technological revolution” that we have undergone and you will see infinite changes.
Let’s take for one moment Anne Elliot, and exchange her into the world of Coketown and Hard Times. A woman so overwhelmed with the concept of love and relationship’s would never been fit in the eminently practical world of Mr. Thomas Gradgrind. Louisa Gradgrind was sent to be married based on fact and only fact. While the thought of a “suitable match” is important to Anne and the society that she is apart of in Persuasion, there is still a thought of feelings and love none of which are based on fact.
A letter like what Captain Wentworth writes Anne towards the end of the book would never have been acceptable or thought well of in the world of Coketown. “Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone forever”, the simple concept of a love letter is too much based on fancies too be allowed in the world of Dickens, let alone a letter that discusses feelings, or later on says “Dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved non but you.”(Austen 178). In the world of Coketown, Anne Elliot would have never received a letter like this, she would have never known what love was, she would have learned facts and nothing but facts.
She would have been like a machine, which has no feelings or no resemblance to life at all, simply a machine that can obtain new parts and run more smoothly by learning and memorizing more facts. No, this world of Coketown is most definitely not the world of Bath or Lyme or Kellynch that Jane Austen writes about.
Let’s also take Mr. Bounderby now, since it is only fair, and put him in the world of Jane Austen and Persuasion. A man of such boastfulness and crudeness I do not believe would have been proper enough to get along with the Elliot’s or Musgrove’s or even the lowly Croft’s. Constantly repeating his accomplishments and his ability to rise up through the ranks even though he spent his tenth birthday without “a shoe to (his) foot. As to a stocking, (he) didn’t know such a thing by name.”
He has a complete disregard for the poor and for feelings in general as he shows when little Sissy comes home to see her father has gone and he comforts her by saying
“Now Good people all, said he, this is wanton waste of time. Let the girl understand the fact. Let her take it from me, if you like, who have been run away from, myself. Here, what’s your name! Your father has absconded-deserted you- and you mustn’t expect to see him again as long as you live”
This would not have impressed Anne Elliot who took time out of her day to go see Mrs. Smith who has fallen upon rough times. No Mr. Bounderby I believe would have stuck out like a soar thumb in the age of persuasion.
I would place Mr. Bounderby into the world of Persuasion for the exress purpose of seeing him interact with the two characters in Persuasion who are most concerned with their social standing and that of those around them. Sir Walter and Mary Musgrove.
Mr. Bounderby would be someone that neither one of the socially obsessed Elliot/Musgroves would be able to tolerate. Mr. Bounderby seems to be proud of his humble beginings, when he is first introduced he is shown to be bragging to Mrs. Gradgrind about the destitution from which he arose, "Not that a ditch was new to me, for I was born in an ditch." (13)
A statement such as this would only serve to horrify the characters of Persuasion and completely alientate Mr. Bounderby from any possible relationship with Sir Walter or Mary, and probably from Lady Russel and Elizabeth, although Anne would be bored and turned off by his fastidious nature and hatred of all things fanciful.
At the same time these people would annoy Mr. Bounderby, due to their insistance on reading literature that is not completely based on fact, or could happen at any time. Because of this the people of Persuasion and Mr. Bounderby from Hard Times would be in a state of conflict. The Elliots would be of a standing that would make them very attractive to Mr. Bounderby yet they would reject him because of his initial standing in life as well as his boorish nature. While Bounderby would find himself completely disappointed in people who are not as sensible as he would have thought, or wanted, them to be.
Some of the ideals of Sir Walter in Persuasion and Thomas Gradgrind in Hard Times are very similar. Sir Waltern fancies himself a gentleman, a well to do man and a man of high status. Gradgrind also fancies himself as a gentleman, and a man of high status. Gradgrind also believes himself to be well educated with a sound outlook on life. Sir Walter also seems to be very comfortable with his view on the world. Both men look down on people of lower status than themselves. Sir Walter goes off on Anne when she plans to visit her friend Ms. Smith saying " And what is her attraction? That she is old and sickly. Upon my word, Miss Anne Elliot, you have the most extraordinary taste! Everything that revolts other people -- low company, paltry rooms, foul air, disgusting associations -- are inviting to you."
Mr. Gradgrind also speaks badly of Sissy and her influence on his children. He blames her class and her position in life for her bad influence. However, he later takes her in and treats her as if she were part of his family.
It would be interesting to see Sir Walter in a scenerio with Gradgrind. Both men consider themselves in the same regard, yet Gradgrind actually converses and is seen in the company of those belonging to a lower class. If he is true to his character, Sir Walter would be outraged at the fact that Gradgrind took a circus performer's daughter into his home.
Both men are of higher class, both men have similar attitudes on people that are different from themselves. However, Gradgrind would not refuse to be seen in public with a factory worker while Sir Walter would just as soon die. Sir Walter is afforded the space to be able to seperate himself from different sects of society. Gradgrind is not able to avoid factory workers.
The replacement I would most want to see is that of Gradgrind for Sir Walter (or Lady Russel) in regards to the prospect of marriage. For Gradgrind, marriage is all based upon facts, "Does Mr. Bounderby as me [Louisa] to marry him?", "Shall I marry him?", those are the two questions that he believes should be answered. When Louisa is questioning of the proposal, Grandgrind suggests statistical research of husbands and wives in different countries and of different ages. He deduces that because Louisa has no other marriage offers and since Bounderby has asked, that the answer should be yes. I think this shows that with the industrialization of life also comes a sort of mechanization of marriage. No longer are feelings even a concern.
-Placing Gradgrind into the time of Persuasion would be a big conflict because his mind would not be geared towards social standing and mobility, it would be based on fact. However, I do think that Gradgrind would share in the decision of Lady Russel and Sir Walter that a match between the two of them would not work. I think that with Bounderby, Gradgrind saw consistency in that Bounderby had his eye on Louisa for years. He also sees the age difference as a positive in the evidence he has found empirically. I think that Gradgrind would see Wentworth (in the first proposal) as being too quick in his decision to ask Anne to marry him, but also Wentworth's decision was based on feeling. I think Gradgrind would see this feeling-based decision as irrational and ridiculous. Gradgrind therefore would probably agree with the decision Sir Walter would have made, but for different reasons.
-Why would their reasonings differ? I think it does have to do with the difference in times. Sir Walter developed in an agrarian society with a hierarchy topped by landed gentry/aristocrats. Grandgrind's time shows the transition of that with the use of Mrs. Sparsit (fallen aristocracy) to a time of mechanization and industrialization. So, with the change in times comes the change in ideas and a change in hierarchy. So, the change in times definitely affects why Grandgrind would reason the way that he does.
I would place Bounderby from Hard Times into Persuasion. Bounderby started was not born into his fortune but has come to make his own status in the community. This fact would make it hard for him to fit in in the times of Persuasion. In the time of Persuasion it was all about being born into your status. People should have been fine with where they were at in their own lives and not try and make there way up the class ladder. And Sir Walter was a very strong believer in people that were born into a lower class did not belong with him. Bounderby was never shy about saying how hard he worked for everything and nobody helped him out in life. "How I fought through it, I don't know. I was determined, I suppose. I have been a determined character in later life, and i suppose i was then. Here Iam, Mrs. Gradgrin, anyho, and nobody to thank for my being here, but myself." This is the type of comment that would have made Sir Walter just disregard and frown upon Bounderby. Outside of the class they were born in, I think they could have gotten along. Both of them were so very arrogant and looked down upon everyone else as if they were better then everybody.
The different time is definatly there. Simply in the fact that Bounderby can go around acting as if from higher class. If he was in Persuasion he probably would not have been allowed to do everything that the Elliots did. People would have saw him as poor little boy that he was, and not the wealthy man he has become. Thi i think has to do with the industrial revolution going on. Now it seems to be easier for some one to think of somehing to do to make them a lot of money. And since these people are making so much money and they are gaining power in the community, people have to let them be of the upper class or things would not run as smoothly.
The cities ar two very different towns. That is mostly because of the amount of jobs from the industries that are going up in Choketown. This allowed for a much lower class of people live there. Where as Bath was a place for the higher class people would go to get away from whatever their problems were.
The differnce in classes i have already discussed. Mostly the old and new money that is respected in Hard Time and the old money being the higher classs people in Persuasion.
I believe, that if one was to take the pompous, arrogant, and self-made/reliant character of Mr. Bounderby into the social scene of the Elliot's and the social elite of the early 1800's. It seems as though if one of Mr. Bounderby's standing was to enter the social circle of Anne and the Baronet, it would be seen as scandal or not even recognized by characters such as Sir Walter and Lady Russel, who would see him as being lesser than the Naval Officers they were forced to interact with. Their obsession with class and hierarchy would certainly look down at a man such as Bounderby, who weaves his riches-to-rags story and wears it as a badge of honor. In the world of the Elliot family, there's nothing honorable about being poor, let alone breaking social classes to become wealthy.
However, it is because of this pride in his story that he himself, while rubbing elbows with Mrs. Sparsit once part of the aristocracy, he holds a little contempt for the landed wealthy as he demonstrates in his conversation with Mrs. Sparsit on page 46:
"A hard bed the pavement of its Arcade used to make, I assure you. People like you, ma'am, accustomed from infancy to like on down feathers, have no idea how hard a paving-stone is, without trying it. No, No, it's of no use to my talking to you about tumblers. I should speak of foreign dancers, and the West End of London, and May Fair, and lords and ladies, and honourables." (Dickens, 46)
With this kind of arrogant narcissism based on his humble roots, there is no way Bounderby would thrive in the status-centric world of Jane Austen's Persuasion.
Post a Comment